I agree with everything that The Masked Arminian Pastor said, except maybe the last part about offending Calvinists. Yes, they will naturally feel offended and ashamed when confronted by the fairness of the Arminian gospel compared with the unfairness of their own. But we should not add to that offense unnecessarily.
We want to win them over and not cause them to turn a deaf ear to our appeals to their free will. I believe that Calvinists know deep down that they are wrong, and that the gospel as taught in their tulip bars the gates of heaven to many who really want to be saved and allow Jesus into their hearts.
.............................
And Corky, you are welcome to come visit us again at the Society of Evangelical Arminians. Only next time give us more advanced warning so that we will be better prepared to answer your challenge.
Jake, let me just say that Calvinists love the word "ALL" when it applies to giving God ALL the credit/praise/glory for HIS salvation! Arminians believe part of the credit goes to themselves. When I hear an Arminian rant about his "pristine free will" he ends up pronouncing "salvation" as "selfvation". Brother, I was a headstrong, adamant Arminian for years. I, too, thought Calvinism taught something that was totally "unfair". My view of God had man's fingerprints all over it. I'm old, so I can say it, man-centered methods/goals/gospel disgust me. It has to be ALL God, the whole counsel of God, the undiluted sovereignty of God or nothing.
(Your last comment (7:42AM) appeared as I was responding to Michael)
Okay. Five cents. If we want to talk about God's "fairness" in the salvation of sinners, the Epistle to Romans lays it out as thoroughly and clearly as you will find in all the Scriptures. Early on, we see Paul leveling the playing field, as it were, for all mankind by declaring that "there is none righteous," and that "there is none that seeks after God." And "they have all [there's your 'all'] gone out of the way."
Yes, we are "free" to do what we want to, and what we want is to run as far away from the presence of a holy God as we possibly can.
In chapter 4 we see that God justifies the ungodly through faith and later, in chapter 10 we are told where faith comes from.
...the gospel as taught in their tulip bars the gates of heaven to many who really want to be saved...
This is a common misconception Arminians have about Calvinism. Calvinists believe that wanting to be saved is a result of being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. If you truly want to be saved, then you are already saved.
But this begs the question: What does it mean to be "saved"? If someone's idea of salvation is not Christian, then one may not be saved. It could be that, hearing what true salvation is, one rejects it in favor of some other false idea of salvation. Mormonism is one such obvious example. Salvation for them is the process of becoming Gods themselves so they can have a planet of their own to populate. That's not the Christian gospel. This is why it's important to get the gospel right so that people know true salvation.
One more thing:
...the fairness of the Arminian gospel...
God isn't fair. If He were fair an innocent man wouldn't have been put to death in the place of guilty people. That's why we preach grace instead of fairness. He's not fair, but He's not fair in our favor. If He were fair, we'd all be in hell.
Jake, Thanks for the invite. Next time I pop in I'll send a text message to let you know. I must say, I enjoyed singing some old hymns with your staff. Arminians sure can sing. Especially enjoyed "And Can It Be" by Charles Wesley. And tell your secretary thanks for the cookies and milk.
The Masked Arminian isn't Jesuit is he? I mean those guys would ANYTHING for a convert.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everything that The Masked Arminian Pastor said, except maybe the last part about offending Calvinists. Yes, they will naturally feel offended and ashamed when confronted by the fairness of the Arminian gospel compared with the unfairness of their own. But we should not add to that offense unnecessarily.
ReplyDeleteWe want to win them over and not cause them to turn a deaf ear to our appeals to their free will. I believe that Calvinists know deep down that they are wrong, and that the gospel as taught in their tulip bars the gates of heaven to many who really want to be saved and allow Jesus into their hearts.
.............................
And Corky, you are welcome to come visit us again at the Society of Evangelical Arminians. Only next time give us more advanced warning so that we will be better prepared to answer your challenge.
Jake
I think the Masked Arminian Pastor is Jack Schaap.
ReplyDeleteJake, let me just say that Calvinists love the word "ALL" when it applies to giving God ALL the credit/praise/glory for HIS salvation!
ReplyDeleteArminians believe part of the credit goes to themselves. When I hear an Arminian rant about his "pristine free will" he ends up pronouncing "salvation" as "selfvation".
Brother, I was a headstrong, adamant Arminian for years. I, too, thought Calvinism taught something that was totally "unfair". My view of God had man's fingerprints all over it.
I'm old, so I can say it, man-centered methods/goals/gospel disgust me. It has to be ALL God, the whole counsel of God, the undiluted sovereignty of God or nothing.
If any other believer in the doctrines of grace would like to put in his "five" cents worth, please feel free.
ReplyDelete(I just Googled "Jack Schaap" to see who you were talking about.)
ReplyDeleteI think it would be neat if they had a Christian pastor version of Johnny Carson's "Carnak the Magnificent."
Eddie,
ReplyDelete(Your last comment (7:42AM) appeared as I was responding to Michael)
Okay. Five cents.
If we want to talk about God's "fairness" in the salvation of sinners, the Epistle to Romans lays it out as thoroughly and clearly as you will find in all the Scriptures. Early on, we see Paul leveling the playing field, as it were, for all mankind by declaring that "there is none righteous," and that "there is none that seeks after God." And "they have all [there's your 'all'] gone out of the way."
Yes, we are "free" to do what we want to, and what we want is to run as far away from the presence of a holy God as we possibly can.
In chapter 4 we see that God justifies the ungodly through faith and later, in chapter 10 we are told where faith comes from.
all the time I hav rigt now.Sorry only 4 cents:)
I know all about the Masked Arminian Pastor! I used to be one! Check out Reformation Cartoons and see what I've been up to now!
ReplyDeletehttp://reformationcartoons.blogspot.com/
...the gospel as taught in their tulip bars the gates of heaven to many who really want to be saved...
ReplyDeleteThis is a common misconception Arminians have about Calvinism. Calvinists believe that wanting to be saved is a result of being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. If you truly want to be saved, then you are already saved.
But this begs the question: What does it mean to be "saved"? If someone's idea of salvation is not Christian, then one may not be saved. It could be that, hearing what true salvation is, one rejects it in favor of some other false idea of salvation. Mormonism is one such obvious example. Salvation for them is the process of becoming Gods themselves so they can have a planet of their own to populate. That's not the Christian gospel. This is why it's important to get the gospel right so that people know true salvation.
One more thing:
...the fairness of the Arminian gospel...
God isn't fair. If He were fair an innocent man wouldn't have been put to death in the place of guilty people. That's why we preach grace instead of fairness. He's not fair, but He's not fair in our favor. If He were fair, we'd all be in hell.
Jake,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the invite. Next time I pop in I'll send a text message to let you know.
I must say, I enjoyed singing some old hymns with your staff. Arminians sure can sing. Especially enjoyed "And Can It Be" by Charles Wesley.
And tell your secretary thanks for the cookies and milk.